Comments on: The Six Perils of Writing Workshops http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/ Connecting the literature community in the East Midlands, UK Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:18:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: rennie parker http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-251 rennie parker Sat, 12 Dec 2009 16:49:48 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-251 I encountered all the drawbacks of literature clubs when starting out - the cliqueyness, the 'house style', the lack of solid criticism, the nutters, the hobbyists who were using it as an alternative to watching TV or knitting, etc. Leicester Writer's Club (back in 1989) told me I hadn't published enough to belong to them - and when I became published shortly afterwards, it was somehow OK now, and they were going to allow me in. But I said no. I should have said something ruder. I can't see the advantage of belonging to a writers group for any length of time; providing a writer has enough contact with people anyway, there shouldn't be any need one you've got the basics and seen a few writings into the open air. Of course some people really want to be part of the group scene and it can combine the social life/arts learning quite well, but if you want to be a novelist or a poet, a group is more likely to be a hindrance than a help - or so I've found! I'm sure there's great groups out there, but I've found some frankly embarrassing in practice, and the occasional workshop has been far more beneficial for staying up to date and motivated. I encountered all the drawbacks of literature clubs when starting out – the cliqueyness, the 'house style', the lack of solid criticism, the nutters, the hobbyists who were using it as an alternative to watching TV or knitting, etc. Leicester Writer's Club (back in 1989) told me I hadn't published enough to belong to them – and when I became published shortly afterwards, it was somehow OK now, and they were going to allow me in. But I said no. I should have said something ruder. I can't see the advantage of belonging to a writers group for any length of time; providing a writer has enough contact with people anyway, there shouldn't be any need one you've got the basics and seen a few writings into the open air. Of course some people really want to be part of the group scene and it can combine the social life/arts learning quite well, but if you want to be a novelist or a poet, a group is more likely to be a hindrance than a help – or so I've found! I'm sure there's great groups out there, but I've found some frankly embarrassing in practice, and the occasional workshop has been far more beneficial for staying up to date and motivated.

]]> By: rennie parker http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-245 rennie parker Sat, 12 Dec 2009 09:49:48 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-245 I encountered all the drawbacks of literature clubs when starting out - the cliqueyness, the 'house style', the lack of solid criticism, the nutters, the hobbyists who were using it as an alternative to watching TV or knitting, etc. Leicester Writer's Club (back in 1989) told me I hadn't published enough to belong to them - and when I became published shortly afterwards, it was somehow OK now, and they were going to allow me in. But I said no. I should have said something ruder. I can't see the advantage of belonging to a writers group for any length of time; providing a writer has enough contact with people anyway, there shouldn't be any need one you've got the basics and seen a few writings into the open air. Of course some people really want to be part of the group scene and it can combine the social life/arts learning quite well, but if you want to be a novelist or a poet, a group is more likely to be a hindrance than a help - or so I've found! I'm sure there's great groups out there, but I've found some frankly embarrassing in practice, and the occasional workshop has been far more beneficial for staying up to date and motivated. I encountered all the drawbacks of literature clubs when starting out – the cliqueyness, the 'house style', the lack of solid criticism, the nutters, the hobbyists who were using it as an alternative to watching TV or knitting, etc. Leicester Writer's Club (back in 1989) told me I hadn't published enough to belong to them – and when I became published shortly afterwards, it was somehow OK now, and they were going to allow me in. But I said no. I should have said something ruder. I can't see the advantage of belonging to a writers group for any length of time; providing a writer has enough contact with people anyway, there shouldn't be any need one you've got the basics and seen a few writings into the open air. Of course some people really want to be part of the group scene and it can combine the social life/arts learning quite well, but if you want to be a novelist or a poet, a group is more likely to be a hindrance than a help – or so I've found! I'm sure there's great groups out there, but I've found some frankly embarrassing in practice, and the occasional workshop has been far more beneficial for staying up to date and motivated.

]]> By: orbific http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-244 orbific Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:56:16 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-244 Thank you for the information. Some very interesting techniques there. I will have to play with this when I next have a chance - it looks like the Lermann techniques could avoid some of the problems I raised in the article. Please do post the further information if you find it!<br><br>James Thank you for the information. Some very interesting techniques there. I will have to play with this when I next have a chance – it looks like the Lermann techniques could avoid some of the problems I raised in the article. Please do post the further information if you find it!

James

]]> By: Brindley Hallam Dennis http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-243 Brindley Hallam Dennis Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:55:00 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-243 Working from memory, not notes, you understand....The lady deemed the problem with workshops was that it marginalised the 'artist'. The workshop technique puts the artist at the centre of the process, and uses a 'facilitator' to keep house. Falling into four phases, the workshop begins with Affirmation: workshoppers respond to the work in a positive fashion. Artists Questions follow as phase two, in which the artist tries to explore specific elements of his/her work by questioning the workshoppers. In phase three the Workshoppers ask questions of the artist, with permission! In the fourth phase the workshoppers can offer, again with permission, comments or suggestions. (I hope I've got those in the right order!). We worked the system in a group of about five. It was clunky to begin with, but got slicker, and more useful over the period of a couple of semesters. Specifically it focussed the workshoppers AND the writer on the writer's intentions for the piece under scrutiny, and avoided the pointless (I was spectacularly guilty of this) speculation of what we would have done with the idea, or indeed the text, if we got our hands on it. Early sessions were poor, simply because most of us hadn't a clue about what we were trying to do! We soon grew out of that. We had to learn to deal with what other people's aims and intentions were, and relate those to what they'd produced. It is a definite skill, which you learn as a group becomes more familiar with the technique. I felt it was a useful, and positive alternative to the macho boot camp model, which I have to say, I don't rate at all. There you go! Yrs aye, BHD (if I find my printed off info, with URL of the technique's originator, I'll post it). Working from memory, not notes, you understand….The lady deemed the problem with workshops was that it marginalised the 'artist'. The workshop technique puts the artist at the centre of the process, and uses a 'facilitator' to keep house. Falling into four phases, the workshop begins with Affirmation: workshoppers respond to the work in a positive fashion. Artists Questions follow as phase two, in which the artist tries to explore specific elements of his/her work by questioning the workshoppers. In phase three the Workshoppers ask questions of the artist, with permission! In the fourth phase the workshoppers can offer, again with permission, comments or suggestions. (I hope I've got those in the right order!). We worked the system in a group of about five. It was clunky to begin with, but got slicker, and more useful over the period of a couple of semesters. Specifically it focussed the workshoppers AND the writer on the writer's intentions for the piece under scrutiny, and avoided the pointless (I was spectacularly guilty of this) speculation of what we would have done with the idea, or indeed the text, if we got our hands on it. Early sessions were poor, simply because most of us hadn't a clue about what we were trying to do! We soon grew out of that. We had to learn to deal with what other people's aims and intentions were, and relate those to what they'd produced. It is a definite skill, which you learn as a group becomes more familiar with the technique. I felt it was a useful, and positive alternative to the macho boot camp model, which I have to say, I don't rate at all. There you go! Yrs aye, BHD (if I find my printed off info, with URL of the technique's originator, I'll post it).

]]> By: orbific http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-241 orbific Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:39:20 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-241 Hello - <br><br>Thank you for the feedback. I'd love to hear more about the Liz Lermann technique for workshopping. I had a look on google, but couldn't find anything relevant. If you could tell me a little about your experiences I'd be very grateful!<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>James Hello –

Thank you for the feedback. I'd love to hear more about the Liz Lermann technique for workshopping. I had a look on google, but couldn't find anything relevant. If you could tell me a little about your experiences I'd be very grateful!

Thanks,

James

]]> By: Brindley Hallam Dennis http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-238 Brindley Hallam Dennis Sun, 06 Dec 2009 12:50:16 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-238 Enjoyed your article...not sure that the opening premsise is right. In fact sure it isn't for many workshops. While doing the M Litt CW in Scotland I came across the Liz Lermann technique for workshopping, devised for dancers. It put the whole process in a different light, and avoided (mostly!) the problems you identify. I know there's a website (probably many) devoted to this technique...but don't have a link (sorry). yrs aye. Enjoyed your article…not sure that the opening premsise is right. In fact sure it isn't for many workshops. While doing the M Litt CW in Scotland I came across the Liz Lermann technique for workshopping, devised for dancers. It put the whole process in a different light, and avoided (mostly!) the problems you identify. I know there's a website (probably many) devoted to this technique…but don't have a link (sorry). yrs aye.

]]> By: Nicola West http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-422 Nicola West Wed, 02 Dec 2009 20:24:20 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-422 <span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">RT @tweetmeme The Six Perils of Writing Workshops | The Literature Network http://bit.ly/6E4hvW</span></span> RT @tweetmeme The Six Perils of Writing Workshops | The Literature Network http://bit.ly/6E4hvW

]]> By: orbific http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-236 orbific Tue, 01 Dec 2009 16:00:34 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-236 Thanks to everyone for the comments... The Leicester Writer's Club, at 50 years old, sounds like an impressive institution. <br><br>To be fair, I've been involved in some wonderful workshop groups in the past. I've been lucky although I've heard plenty of horror stories. I think it's important to question the things we spend our time doing but if we do that and are happy with our choice, then great. Thanks to everyone for the comments… The Leicester Writer's Club, at 50 years old, sounds like an impressive institution.

To be fair, I've been involved in some wonderful workshop groups in the past. I've been lucky although I've heard plenty of horror stories. I think it's important to question the things we spend our time doing but if we do that and are happy with our choice, then great.

]]> By: andybiddulph http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-233 andybiddulph Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:31:13 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-233 I concur with the comments made by members of the Leicester group and maldewhirst of the Runaway Writers. I have been a member of the Runaways for over three years and prior to that I “ran” the Chelmsley Wood Writers’ Group, in Birmingham, for seven years. <br> Chelmsley Wood was informal in the extreme. The only rule was brutal honesty and the only formality was contact details in a little book. We had our own publishing company (ISBN numbers and all) and produced an annual anthology which made a profit. Many people passed through over the years and members had writing of all sorts published. Everyone was self-motivated and did their own thing.<br> Minimal structure appears to be the secret of success. Toxic personalities only thrive in formal, hierarchical structures. Any “got to’s” will ultimately give license to control freaks. Just hang out together and let it all hang out. I concur with the comments made by members of the Leicester group and maldewhirst of the Runaway Writers. I have been a member of the Runaways for over three years and prior to that I “ran” the Chelmsley Wood Writers’ Group, in Birmingham, for seven years.
Chelmsley Wood was informal in the extreme. The only rule was brutal honesty and the only formality was contact details in a little book. We had our own publishing company (ISBN numbers and all) and produced an annual anthology which made a profit. Many people passed through over the years and members had writing of all sorts published. Everyone was self-motivated and did their own thing.
Minimal structure appears to be the secret of success. Toxic personalities only thrive in formal, hierarchical structures. Any “got to’s” will ultimately give license to control freaks. Just hang out together and let it all hang out.

]]> By: jeannette http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-232 jeannette Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:56:26 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-232 I think maybe you haven't found a good workshop, or the right people to form one with. I strongly disagree with Peril 6 -- the workshop I'm part of in Brussels, Belgium has run for now 7 years and we have seen 2 novels published, at least 3 plays performed, several poems published, etc. Lack of finishing has more to do with members than the workshop format. As for Peril 5, that's a question of members being capable of giving informed feedback: a learned skill. If a piece of work is inept then there is usually a valid reason for that: in the plotting or the dialogue or what have you. <br><br>But I do agree completely about Peril 1 -- shame though it is. I think maybe you haven't found a good workshop, or the right people to form one with. I strongly disagree with Peril 6 — the workshop I'm part of in Brussels, Belgium has run for now 7 years and we have seen 2 novels published, at least 3 plays performed, several poems published, etc. Lack of finishing has more to do with members than the workshop format. As for Peril 5, that's a question of members being capable of giving informed feedback: a learned skill. If a piece of work is inept then there is usually a valid reason for that: in the plotting or the dialogue or what have you.

But I do agree completely about Peril 1 — shame though it is.

]]> By: margaretpenfold http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-229 margaretpenfold Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:42:43 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-229 Having been a member of Leicester Writers' Club on and off for 25 years I would agree with Siobhan's description of the club in its current phase,- a supportive club with many experienced and published members, where critiques are geared to the stage the writer is currently at. and nore importantly to what the writer requests. Incidentally some of the most experienced writers are also the most helpful when I have to park my car into what I consider a tight space.<br>The club itself has been going for 50 years during which time its ethos has shifted considerably. Our archives are quite revealing. <br>I would agree with James about the danger of 'house style'. Luckily most of our current members have strong contra-suggestive instincts.<br>I don't agree though that one should despise authors who need a writing group to spur them into action. If only I could afford a house cleaner, it would goad me into doing housework. Several chores facing writers, such as composing synopses and parcelling up manuscripts, might not get done if it hadn't been for the weekly nag, 'Haven't you sent it off yet?' Having been a member of Leicester Writers' Club on and off for 25 years I would agree with Siobhan's description of the club in its current phase,- a supportive club with many experienced and published members, where critiques are geared to the stage the writer is currently at. and nore importantly to what the writer requests. Incidentally some of the most experienced writers are also the most helpful when I have to park my car into what I consider a tight space.
The club itself has been going for 50 years during which time its ethos has shifted considerably. Our archives are quite revealing.
I would agree with James about the danger of 'house style'. Luckily most of our current members have strong contra-suggestive instincts.
I don't agree though that one should despise authors who need a writing group to spur them into action. If only I could afford a house cleaner, it would goad me into doing housework. Several chores facing writers, such as composing synopses and parcelling up manuscripts, might not get done if it hadn't been for the weekly nag, 'Haven't you sent it off yet?'

]]> By: maldewhirst http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-228 maldewhirst Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:34:29 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-228 I would echo Siobhan Logan’s comments. I am a member of the Runaway Writers based in Burton upon Trent. We have a very successful process for critiquing writer’s work, which not only identifies the good but also points out things that don’t necessarily work. It is a rigorous process, but it is built upon the premise that the opinions offered are those of the individual critics and can be ignored.<br><br>You also need to take into account people’s motives for writing, some people write for their own pleasure, some to enter competitions and others to be published and maybe to gain their main income from writing. The Runaway writers has a mix of all of these types of writers, and welcomes them all. We have seen our critiquing process raise some writer’s aspirations such that they are now competition winners, performing poetry in public and being published, it has not only raised the level individual confidence, it has raised level of writing quality from the whole group.<br><br>The Runaway Writers have been together for around 6 years and I have been a member for the last 4 years. The group have developed a trust and respect for writers work, that keeps the writer grounded to the realities of focusing their work toward their target audience. We also recognise that controversy can be a constructive way for individual writers to develop their ideas and their styles. New members whilst quiet at there first couple of meetings, soon find that their voice and their opinions are welcomed. <br><br>Mal Dewhirst I would echo Siobhan Logan’s comments. I am a member of the Runaway Writers based in Burton upon Trent. We have a very successful process for critiquing writer’s work, which not only identifies the good but also points out things that don’t necessarily work. It is a rigorous process, but it is built upon the premise that the opinions offered are those of the individual critics and can be ignored.

You also need to take into account people’s motives for writing, some people write for their own pleasure, some to enter competitions and others to be published and maybe to gain their main income from writing. The Runaway writers has a mix of all of these types of writers, and welcomes them all. We have seen our critiquing process raise some writer’s aspirations such that they are now competition winners, performing poetry in public and being published, it has not only raised the level individual confidence, it has raised level of writing quality from the whole group.

The Runaway Writers have been together for around 6 years and I have been a member for the last 4 years. The group have developed a trust and respect for writers work, that keeps the writer grounded to the realities of focusing their work toward their target audience. We also recognise that controversy can be a constructive way for individual writers to develop their ideas and their styles. New members whilst quiet at there first couple of meetings, soon find that their voice and their opinions are welcomed.

Mal Dewhirst

]]> By: Siobhan Logan http://literaturenetwork.org/2009/11/the-six-perils-of-writing-workshops/comment-page-1/#comment-227 Siobhan Logan Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:13:54 +0000 http://literaturenetwork.org/?p=2095#comment-227 'Are there workshops that have lasted for years without tears and tantrums?'<br>Well, I've been a member of Leicester Writers' Club for 9 years now. It's been running for 50 years so is remarkably stable despite changes of membership. Esentially what we do is workshop each others' manuscripts each week. I can't imagine having got this far without that community of writers - I've learnt so much about both the craft and industry of writing there. Maybe it helps that we're all at a certain stage - ie submitting work professionally. But whilst it's supportive, the critiquing is very rigorous and I valued that from the start. We deal with writing in every genre - not just fiction - so maybe that also works against a 'house style' taking over. 'Are workshopped novels ever finished?' - yes, I've seen plenty not only finished but published in that time. The overall thrust of your piece was that workshops have 'perils' but I've also workshopped with Leicester poetry Society and Sounswrite and found each group had something useful to offer. Last week I went to Suffolk for a residential workshop with the Smiths Knoll poetry magazine - all subscriber poets - and it provided the same detailed, rigorous feedback as well as useful contacts. Rather than your driving analogy, I'd say these workshops make me think of a group of professional musicians jamming or rehearsing. It's very hard to find other readers of work in progress who will bring the same kind of informed attention to the work. 'Are there workshops that have lasted for years without tears and tantrums?'
Well, I've been a member of Leicester Writers' Club for 9 years now. It's been running for 50 years so is remarkably stable despite changes of membership. Esentially what we do is workshop each others' manuscripts each week. I can't imagine having got this far without that community of writers – I've learnt so much about both the craft and industry of writing there. Maybe it helps that we're all at a certain stage – ie submitting work professionally. But whilst it's supportive, the critiquing is very rigorous and I valued that from the start. We deal with writing in every genre – not just fiction – so maybe that also works against a 'house style' taking over. 'Are workshopped novels ever finished?' – yes, I've seen plenty not only finished but published in that time. The overall thrust of your piece was that workshops have 'perils' but I've also workshopped with Leicester poetry Society and Sounswrite and found each group had something useful to offer. Last week I went to Suffolk for a residential workshop with the Smiths Knoll poetry magazine – all subscriber poets – and it provided the same detailed, rigorous feedback as well as useful contacts. Rather than your driving analogy, I'd say these workshops make me think of a group of professional musicians jamming or rehearsing. It's very hard to find other readers of work in progress who will bring the same kind of informed attention to the work.

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